I've just send some NZ$ LAVA's way. Bad thought criminals! ;) You outlined this tribunal case very well. I understand the political stance. But my blood is boiling that the very group presenting Lesbian Visibility is being erased from sight because of some hurty feelings by extremely sensitive gender confused people. Do these people have any idea what it's been like, and still is, to move around in the world as an out lesbian?! And in every new situation to have to brace ourselves for negative responses, once they know who we are? I mean how many 'coming outs' have I had to do in my long lesbian life? Too many. Lesbians have feelings too! And the need for safety! And being terfs sort of comes with the lesbian territory, doesn't it. Lots of love to LAVA from across the ditch where LAG (Lesbian Action Group) is awaiting the outcome from our tribunal hearings.
Watch Gay USA, documentary I didn't know existed TCM showed over Pride🌈, excellent time capsule, Anita Bryant & pre-AIDS. 1 interesting clip I learned from & was impressed they included was women criticizing presence of drag queens, & they're right. Female friend died @ 37 from recurring gynecological cancer no trans woman will ever be @ risk to, trans are not women.
Thanks so much, Dusty. Regarding the case being taken as a political opinion discrimination case rather than a sex discrimination case: my understanding is that it's because Pride was not primarily discriminating against them because they were women but because they held the opinion that human's can't change sex.
If they were the kind of compliant lesbians or women who believed that men could be lesbians and that women could have penises then I think Pride would have been fine with them being at the Out in the City event. So, while of course, it is a form of misogyny and anti-lesbianism, if you're definitions of women and lesbian are meaningful, from a legal standpoint the political opinion one is the most blatant.
The thought policing issue could not be more relevant. I am in touch with a number of younger lesbians and gay men who know very well they are same-sex attracted. The cost of speaking this indelible truth is too high though. What happens when parts of the community are forced to deny their own interests, preferences and beliefs and to force themselves into an ideological straight-jacket for their own self preservation. So much for "too be who I really am"! It only seems to work one way.
Well, he's gone anyway. There is a temporary Commissioner at the moment and the permanent replacement is Stephen Rainbow. If you don't know he's an old blue-green type, whose done a bunch of work in the well rainbow space. He has been accused of being transphobic which he denies. He does seem to be more open to discussion about the issues which is of course enough to have labels like transphobia thrown at you. Paul Thistoll, who started and might be the entirety of Countering Hate Speech Aotearoa, is so mad at Rainbow's appointment he is going on, in his manic deranged way, about initiating a "judicial review" of the appointment.
It's time for a woman with the surname Labrys to be appointed. I never heard of the surname rainbow before... you're sure it's not chosen? Anything goes these days..
Thanks so much for the informative updates on this case. I'd be interested to know if the law ranks protected characteristics as more or less worthy notwithstanding the implicit biases of the judiciary.
There is an HRC guiding document called the Paris Principles that relate to the proper operation of Human Rights Agencies across the world. https://www.ohchr.org/en/stories/2013/05/paris-principles-20-years-guiding-work-national-human-rights-institutions New Zealand's Commission and other arrangements fare pretty well except in relation to pluralism where for at least two decades they have placed the interests of transgender people above those of women and gay and lesbian people. The HRA confers the responsibility on the Commission to "to encourage the maintenance and development of harmonious relations between individuals and among the diverse groups in New Zealand society" https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1993/0082/latest/whole.html#DLM304276 From these I infer that there should not be a hierarchy of rights but a balancing of rights and interests.
Sigh, I don't think that fact that no mammal on the planet can change sex is a "political opinion", but a statement of fact. This highlights the importance of having clear definitions for words that are understood. Which is of course why shouting "transwomen are women" is factually inaccurate. To quote the inspirational JKR, "transwomen are transwomen".
Excellent work and good luck with what could become a global human rights test case for lesbians who oppose the co-opting of Pride to exclude and shame lesbians for not accepting men can be lesbians. It's not pride anymore, is it? It's just plain old-fashioned male arrogance, with a fair few handmaidens, straight and 'queer', mostly young, who think it's a bit of fun to piss off the oldies. 🙄 I read a female-authored political novel a few years ago (forgotten the name), in which the storyline was kind of standard feminist, but one of the main messages was delivered by the young lesbian character recently out of the closet who pronounced emphatically that 'lesbian' was old hat and 'queer' was the new, altogether cooler, term to use. Just like that. These bastards really have queered every corner of our public sphere. I despise them with a queer passion.
Thanks Terf Vibes! Yes, from what I understand it is a bit of a test case. It's terribly sad as well that same-sex sexuality is now taboo, and young 'queer' people think lesbians are the enemy.
It's horrendous, although it's not quite all young people. Magdalen Berns of course was as switched on as anyone was years before most of us woke up to the misogyny and homophobia of trans. There are others too. But not enough. Nowhere near - yet!
Hi Gar, thank you for reporting on this. I love that this case raises the spector of the thought police operating at a Pride event. Isn't that a bit hypocritical? I bet many attending would not want religious conservatives policing their thoughts. What thoughts might Pride events police next? I will write more on this later.
Also, you write really well: clearly and with humor. Well done!
Thanks GenCrit! Yes, inclusivity justifying exclusion. And not only that, some of the LAVA women helped start the organisation that became Wellington Pride.
I've just send some NZ$ LAVA's way. Bad thought criminals! ;) You outlined this tribunal case very well. I understand the political stance. But my blood is boiling that the very group presenting Lesbian Visibility is being erased from sight because of some hurty feelings by extremely sensitive gender confused people. Do these people have any idea what it's been like, and still is, to move around in the world as an out lesbian?! And in every new situation to have to brace ourselves for negative responses, once they know who we are? I mean how many 'coming outs' have I had to do in my long lesbian life? Too many. Lesbians have feelings too! And the need for safety! And being terfs sort of comes with the lesbian territory, doesn't it. Lots of love to LAVA from across the ditch where LAG (Lesbian Action Group) is awaiting the outcome from our tribunal hearings.
Thanks so much Margo. LAVA will be very grateful. And best of luck to LAG.
Watch Gay USA, documentary I didn't know existed TCM showed over Pride🌈, excellent time capsule, Anita Bryant & pre-AIDS. 1 interesting clip I learned from & was impressed they included was women criticizing presence of drag queens, & they're right. Female friend died @ 37 from recurring gynecological cancer no trans woman will ever be @ risk to, trans are not women.
Thanks. Another excellent piece on the LAVA case.
Can you explain why the case has not also been taken, in the alternative, as a sex discrimination case?
Have cross posted
https://dustymasterson.substack.com/p/keeping-a-case-in-the-public-eye
Best of luck to LAVA from here in the UK!
Dusty
Thanks so much, Dusty. Regarding the case being taken as a political opinion discrimination case rather than a sex discrimination case: my understanding is that it's because Pride was not primarily discriminating against them because they were women but because they held the opinion that human's can't change sex.
If they were the kind of compliant lesbians or women who believed that men could be lesbians and that women could have penises then I think Pride would have been fine with them being at the Out in the City event. So, while of course, it is a form of misogyny and anti-lesbianism, if you're definitions of women and lesbian are meaningful, from a legal standpoint the political opinion one is the most blatant.
Thanks Garwhoungle. I think I would’ve tacked on sex discrimination but fingers crossed anyway 😊
Dusty
The thought policing issue could not be more relevant. I am in touch with a number of younger lesbians and gay men who know very well they are same-sex attracted. The cost of speaking this indelible truth is too high though. What happens when parts of the community are forced to deny their own interests, preferences and beliefs and to force themselves into an ideological straight-jacket for their own self preservation. So much for "too be who I really am"! It only seems to work one way.
Did we manage to get rid of dreadful Paul Hunt from HRC?
Well, he's gone anyway. There is a temporary Commissioner at the moment and the permanent replacement is Stephen Rainbow. If you don't know he's an old blue-green type, whose done a bunch of work in the well rainbow space. He has been accused of being transphobic which he denies. He does seem to be more open to discussion about the issues which is of course enough to have labels like transphobia thrown at you. Paul Thistoll, who started and might be the entirety of Countering Hate Speech Aotearoa, is so mad at Rainbow's appointment he is going on, in his manic deranged way, about initiating a "judicial review" of the appointment.
Are you kidding? Is he really called Rainbow!! 😂
Dusty
Yes!!
It's time for a woman with the surname Labrys to be appointed. I never heard of the surname rainbow before... you're sure it's not chosen? Anything goes these days..
Hope n pray Paul does not get citizenship…
I only care that he's not making policy.
Actually, which Paul are we talking. My point stands with either but I'm curious.
Thanks so much for the informative updates on this case. I'd be interested to know if the law ranks protected characteristics as more or less worthy notwithstanding the implicit biases of the judiciary.
There is an HRC guiding document called the Paris Principles that relate to the proper operation of Human Rights Agencies across the world. https://www.ohchr.org/en/stories/2013/05/paris-principles-20-years-guiding-work-national-human-rights-institutions New Zealand's Commission and other arrangements fare pretty well except in relation to pluralism where for at least two decades they have placed the interests of transgender people above those of women and gay and lesbian people. The HRA confers the responsibility on the Commission to "to encourage the maintenance and development of harmonious relations between individuals and among the diverse groups in New Zealand society" https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1993/0082/latest/whole.html#DLM304276 From these I infer that there should not be a hierarchy of rights but a balancing of rights and interests.
You're very welcome Treason. Interesting question! Don't know the answer.
Sigh, I don't think that fact that no mammal on the planet can change sex is a "political opinion", but a statement of fact. This highlights the importance of having clear definitions for words that are understood. Which is of course why shouting "transwomen are women" is factually inaccurate. To quote the inspirational JKR, "transwomen are transwomen".
Sorry to break it to you guys, but men are not any sort of women, including the lesbian sort of women. https://lucyleader.substack.com/p/private-spaces
I know, law is weird. Surely reality get to trump fiction? Alas, I guess LAVA's lawyer has to work with what the law is.
Excellent work and good luck with what could become a global human rights test case for lesbians who oppose the co-opting of Pride to exclude and shame lesbians for not accepting men can be lesbians. It's not pride anymore, is it? It's just plain old-fashioned male arrogance, with a fair few handmaidens, straight and 'queer', mostly young, who think it's a bit of fun to piss off the oldies. 🙄 I read a female-authored political novel a few years ago (forgotten the name), in which the storyline was kind of standard feminist, but one of the main messages was delivered by the young lesbian character recently out of the closet who pronounced emphatically that 'lesbian' was old hat and 'queer' was the new, altogether cooler, term to use. Just like that. These bastards really have queered every corner of our public sphere. I despise them with a queer passion.
Thanks Terf Vibes! Yes, from what I understand it is a bit of a test case. It's terribly sad as well that same-sex sexuality is now taboo, and young 'queer' people think lesbians are the enemy.
#terfisaslur, cis ideology & J.K. Rowling not person who menstruates any more than you are troll who types.
It's horrendous, although it's not quite all young people. Magdalen Berns of course was as switched on as anyone was years before most of us woke up to the misogyny and homophobia of trans. There are others too. But not enough. Nowhere near - yet!
Hi Gar, thank you for reporting on this. I love that this case raises the spector of the thought police operating at a Pride event. Isn't that a bit hypocritical? I bet many attending would not want religious conservatives policing their thoughts. What thoughts might Pride events police next? I will write more on this later.
Also, you write really well: clearly and with humor. Well done!
Feminists actually gender affirming.
Thanks GenCrit! Yes, inclusivity justifying exclusion. And not only that, some of the LAVA women helped start the organisation that became Wellington Pride.
This is such a fantastic outline of the case and the issues it raises.
My name is Suzanne and have lesbian-exclusive thoughts on a daily basis.
Outrageous bigotry on your part. :)